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The Khaled Mishaal Interview (2 of 7)
Ghassan Charbel Al-Hayat 2003/12/15
* Where did Hamas come from? What led to declare its establishment in 1987? Who were the first people to think about it?
- Hamas was declared a political and jihad faction strongly participating in the first Intifada. Its first Intifada action was on December 8, 1987. The first official statement of the movement was issued on December 14, 1987. Practically, the movement started its jihad activity ever since the first day of the first Intifada. The Muslim Brotherhood, which was present in several Arab countries, was also present in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood movement started in the 1940s. Its first sections (center or organizational unit) were founded in 1945 in Haifa, Yafa, Gaza, Jerusalem and Hebron. When the 1948 war erupted, the number of Muslim Brotherhood sections exceeded 20. Later, geography imposed a new reality for the Muslim Brotherhood. Members who were in Gaza became closer to Egypt and those who were in the West Bank became closer to Jordan. This movement participated in the 1948 war and the battles that took place between 1953 and 1955 in Gaza. This jihad (holy war) atmosphere paved the way for the establishment of Fatah. Khalil Al Wazir belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood and he participated in jihad in Gaza. Muslim Brotherhood members were carrying out operations against the Zionist enemy in the border regions adjacent to Gaza. This struggle experience ended with the Tripartite Invasion. It is known that a part of Fatah movement was prepared and developed within the Muslim Brotherhood. Just like Abu Iyad, Abu Jihad, Abdulfattah Hammoud, Kamal Adwan and Youssef Omeira. Yasser Arafat had relations with the Muslim Brotherhood. Later, this part attracted Baathists and Nationalists in addition to other trends. In 1968, Muslim Brotherhood members showed up once again in "Shouyoukh" camps where they were all gathered from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan and the Gulf countries. This group agreed with Arafat and worked under Fatah's umbrella in organizing training camps for the Muslim Youth. The camps remained in Jordan until Black September in 1970.
* Who among Hamas leaders was trained in these camps?
- In the current leadership of Hamas, no one participated in these camps. Hamas or Islamic movement members were unable to leave the occupied territories and join the trainings in Jordan.
Hamas' Formation
* How was Hamas formed?
- Hamas was formed through internal and external preparatory steps. Internally, under the occupation, the defeat in 1967 was a real shock that drove our Palestinian people to search for the reasons of the defeat and for the alternative solution. The Palestinian revolution that preceded the defeat became a model for a serious role in resisting the occupation. The occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, where the Muslim Brotherhood was, imposed a new reality. This pushed the Muslim Brotherhood to restructure their organization. They did not join the resistance immediately. Their vision was to build a popular base for their movement and prepare for a long struggle with the occupation. The Zionist openness to Gaza and the West Bank caused turmoil in the social, psychological and ethical situations of the Palestinian people. Zionists widely broke through the Palestinian society and influenced it ethically, economically and culturally. Hence, the Muslim Brotherhood's priority became how to face the occupation's impacts on the youth in the occupied territories' schools and universities. In the 1970s, the organizational structure of the Muslim Brotherhood was rebuilt and the movement spread among young men and women students, in the mosques, which are the essential pillars of educating the society and treating the defections the occupation caused. People were attracted to the mosques where they were religiously and nationally mobilized. Social institutions were established in order to develop youth sports and cultural activities and provide services for poor people and orphans. One of the most important institutions is the Islamic Center founded by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin.
* Does establishing such a center require the authorization of the Israeli authorities?
- No. The Palestinian people had a margin to establish clubs and institutions. This civilian institution had no military aspect that might lead the occupation to oppose it.
* I mean, was the center registered with the Israeli authorities?
- It was registered according to the procedures of the time.
* Where did the money spent to establish this center come from?
- From the well-off members of the Islamic movement. Establishing the center was considered to be a charity. Using their social status in Palestine, they started collecting donations outside Palestine. In Kuwait, a committee formed by the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood supervised the donations' collection for the Islamic Center in Gaza.
* Did the movement profit during this stage of donations from members spread in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Arab countries?
- Not directly. Every committee represented a Palestinian institution offering the projects' plans it intended to carry out and offer services it might be able to provide the Palestinian people with.
The association meets with charitable Arab people, benefactors and traders and suggests these projects. Charitable people concerned for the nation's interest offer alms and donations for these associations. After the Islamic Center, the Islamic Association was founded in Gaza, alms giving committees in the West Bank, Hebron, Nablus and Bireh. In addition to the restructuring in the 1970s, the movement was eager to work with students at schools and universities, in the mosques and the associations. The Islamic association became opened up to society from different perspectives: schools, universities, religious education, mobilization, associations and their services. The main centers of the Islamic movement were in Gaza, Hebron, Nablus, Jerusalem, Ramallah and others. During this period, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin rose among the leaders of the Islamic movements.
* Is this when Abdulfattah Doukhan, Mohamad Hassan Shamaa and Mohamad Taha rose in the Brotherhood and Sheikh Ahmad Yassin was the president of the Islamic Center?
- Yes. Those people worked in the field of the Islamic Call and education in addition to gathering donations and working in the above-mentioned associations. The Islamic Center is a charity, cultural and sports association.
Sheikh Ahmad Yassin
* Fatah was fighting and the Muslim Brotherhood was establishing social institutions to attract young people. Why was Sheikh Ahmad Yassin a prominent personality?
- God blessed Sheikh Ahmad Yassin with many talents among which is a great capacity to work in the Islamic Call and charity in addition to following up the several aspects of the action. He is devoted. He is not radical but he is very strict, flexible and understanding. One of his qualities is his openness to people.
* But Sheikh Ahmad Yassin destroyed Sheikh Hijazi Al Barbar who tried to establish a group of his own?
- Who did? Sheikh Ahmad Yassin? I have never heard of it. However, one who knows Sheikh Ahmad Yassin knows his kindness, flexibility and understanding. He has a strong personality, a charisma and popularity among people. Not everything we hear is true. Sheikh Ahmad Yassin has an infallible memory. Every leader has opponents. This opposition does not diminish the man's value. After 1967, Sheikh Yassin went to the 1948 regions and a communication was established between the people in Gaza and the West Bank and the people in the 1948 territories. This communication affected the spread of the Islamic movement. Sheikh Ahmad Yassin becomes even more important when we notice that the one who is deploying all these efforts is handicapped. His bodily flaw is accompanied with a great and noble heart. In the 1980s, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin was one of the prominent personalities who had the capacity of settling problems in Gaza. The Sheikh's qualities pushed people to visit him in order to consult him. Rashad Shawwa, the mayor of Gaza, used to resort to Sheikh Ahmad Yassin in order to settle the problems that required the intervention of prominent personalities.
* Where did Sheikh Ahmad Yassin study?
- Sheikh Yassin did not end the study he started in Egypt. It was obvious all Gaza citizens went to Egypt to study. Egypt used to open its universities for them. Some of the students of the Islamic movement in Gaza and West Bank who went to Egypt's universities came back in the middle of the 1970s with university degrees and PhDs like Dr. Abdulaziz Rantissi, Ibrahim Moukadema, Mahmoud Al Zahar, Moussa Abu Marzouq and Ismail Abu Shanab. The Islamic movement hence included a generation of intellectuals. Thus, the idea of the Islamic university in Gaza came up and played a significant role in education. The Islamic Movement participated in building this university in 1978.
The First Pillars
* Did the Iranian revolution and the movement of the Afghan Mujahideen affect the Islamists' awakening in the Palestinian street?
- The first pillars of Hamas were set under adequate circumstances in Gaza, the West Bank and abroad. I have mentioned the internal achievements: building associations, clubs and universities. Abroad, the Islamic Palestinian movement, spread in the Gulf countries, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE and Jordan, sought to play a role in the Palestinian struggle. In 1977, the Islamic Rights List was established as one of the Palestine students' union lists at Kuwait University and I was its first president. After facing obstacles that hindered its participation in the elections, this list was transformed into the Islamic Union of Palestine students at Kuwait University in 1980. In 1979, the Union of the Palestinian Muslim Youth was established in Britain, and in 1981, the Islamic Union for Palestine was established in North America and Canada; Moussa Abu Marzouq participated in this union in 1983. These unions expressed the Palestinian youths in the Diaspora for a role on the Palestinian scene. At that time, these unions did not constitute one faction. Not all of them belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood. A number of Muslim Brotherhood members used to participate in this open student frameworks that sometimes included non-Palestinian.
* How did the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and Fatah receive the establishment of these unions? Why did some join the Muslim Brotherhood? Why did they not choose to join Fatah instead of these new unions?
- The PLO took negative stances from these unions. It was afraid of competition. In Kuwait, the Islamic List, which quit the Palestine student union, was accused of breaking away. This union responded to the PLO by holding it responsible for canceling the elections. These negative stances did not lead to violent incidents and remained limited. Hamas' policy has always been based on dealing peacefully with our people and nation and using force against the occupation.
* Did Sheikh Ahmad Yassin rise, then, as a symbol of this movement?
- Yes, I used to hear about him and about our brothers inside [Palestine] ever since I joined the Islamic Movement in 1971.
Iran
* Did Sheikh Ahmad Yassin enjoy a prominent status in the Muslim Brotherhood?
- Yes. He was number one in the Muslim Brotherhood. Abdulfattah Doukhan used to be number two. To answer your previous question, in light of the Iranian revolution and the Afghan Mujahideen movement, our circles were confident that the Islamic Movement would play a significant role.
* Didn't the Muslim Brotherhood have reservations because the Iranian revolution was Shiite?
- In Iran, we were in front of an Islamic revolution, even though it was Shiite. Sectarian differences are well known in Islamic history. In the Palestinian case, we are waiting for any new phenomenon that would strengthen us against the occupation. We dealt positively with this revolution because it changed a pro-U.S. and Israel regime and relied on wide popular support. This revolution was a special model for us. Palestinian symbols were rising with the beginning of the revolution when both the American and Israeli embassies were closed. Ayatollah Khomeini issued statements in which he supported the Palestinian cause and took a hostile stance toward Israel and the U.S. These statements affected the hearts of the Palestinians, and the Islamic and Arab peoples in general. The Afghan case was different, the entire region dealt with it with duality. The Palestinian left, related to the Soviet left, looked at the Mujahideen differently from the Muslim youth's, for it is a compassionate look to the Afghans who were facing a foreign occupation.
The Muslim Palestinian youth's sympathy toward the Afghan people was natural. The Afghan people are Muslims who have been occupied and they have the right to resist this occupation. The Iranian revolution and the Mujahideen movement left an impact and added new dimensions to the Islamic Movement's future role. The events in Lebanon during the 1970s and 1980s also left an impact. A Palestinian interacts with everything that goes around him; be it Palestinians in the Diaspora or other Muslims. In the 1980s, preparation to come out with Hamas was heating up. Inside [Palestine], the first field experience in the national struggle against the occupation was known as the 'revolution of the mosques.' Young men in Gaza and the West Bank went out of the mosques took to the street and clashed with the Israeli army and cast it with stones. This revolution marked the beginnings of the Palestinian Islamic Movement in the jihad arena. It was programmed. The Islamic Movement believed in the liberation of Palestine and aware of the Zionist project's dangers. It [Islamic Movement] thought that the project it seeks is big and needs time to ripen. It did not want limited suicide attacks. It had a strategic and comprehensive vision. Since the Zionist project, which takes Palestine as its base, is a danger to the Arab and Islamic Umma (nation). The Zionist project, and its alliance with the West, must be faced with a big project that starts in Palestine and have Arab and Islamic depth. This is why the movement preferred to go slow in building its comprehensive project in order to be able to tolerate the strikes, resist and avoid what brings down the people's morale; like consecutive exhausting experiences of 1921, 1923, 1929, 1933, 1936 and 1939 revolutions. We were careful to build a deep-rooted project capable of mobilizing the Islamic nation. The mosques' revolution did not carry the banner of Hamas or the Islamic Movement; it was a growing phenomenon preparing the Muslim youth, which was educated and raised in the mosques, to enter the struggle scene.
Many names for one organization
* This is when there was a failed attempt to store weapons?
- The youth, who was educated on Islamic, Arab, religious, political and national bases started feeling responsibility toward this cause. In 1983, we carried out our first military experience under the leadership of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin; the 1983 organization that sought to gather weapons to prepare groups for military training and launch the jihad project. Our experience was limited and weak; arms trading was full of complicated security measures, which led to the failure of this experience and the arrest of the leaders who planned it: Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, Dr. Ibrahim Moukadema, Salah Shehade and Abdulrahman Tamraz. Dr. Ahmad Al Milh succeeded in leaving Palestine and ridding himself of Israeli pursuit. This limited experience inspired us. Because it was the fruit of strong will and persistence, it was later on successfully repeated. In 1985, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin was released through a prisoner exchange operation with the Popular Front, headed by Ahmad Jibril. Abroad, we sought to develop our project. It is no secret that the 1983 arms deal was funded from abroad; Hamas was still forming. We had no name abroad. We used to be active in mosques and through clubs and unions. Inside, we had several names: the Islamic Movement, Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic Front, the (Islamic) Youth Center and the Islamic Bloc. It was one organization with different names.
* Who replaced Sheikh Ahmad Yassin while he was imprisoned?
- Abdulfattah Doukhan was responsible of activism in Gaza. There were other officials in Nablus, Ramallah, Jerusalem, Hebron and the other cities and villages. In addition to the activities we practiced abroad, we started widening our organizational base inside Palestine, include the maximum number of the Palestinian youth and develop the national political culture with Islamic religious culture, which prepares this generation for its coming military jihad role. Our concerns abroad were to find ways to financially support our brothers in Palestine.
* How did you communicate with the inside?
- We used to use phones, letters and people who always came in and out. Prior to Sheikh Ahmad Yassin's arrest in the beginning of the 1980s, a meeting was held abroad in which brothers from Gaza and the West Bank met with the Palestinian Diaspora. They discussed how to build the coming organization project. This meeting was the firs pillar to bring together the interior with the exterior to finalize the project of Hamas and define the objectives. Sheikh Ahmad Yassin did not attend this meeting because his, and other symbols', movements were not easy.
* Did some of the future Hamas leaders attend this meeting, which you mention but refuse to name its location?
- Yes. With the exception of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, a number of Hamas leaders attended the meeting. I would rather not mention their names and wait for 25 years to declassify the documents, just like the British do. (Laughs)
* Did the meeting take place in 1982 or 1983? Was the decision of launching military action taken in that meeting?
- It was in 1983. The decision to found the Palestinian Islamic project for the cause and preparing the requirements for its success was taken.
* Did Salah Shehade attend the meeting?
- No. This meeting was not meant to prepare for a military action but to draft the Islamic Palestinian movement project to face the occupation, which works in the interest of the Palestinian cause and carry out activities in all the popular, political, media and jihad fields.
The first two martyrs
* It is obvious that you attended the meeting.
- What I told you already is enough for now. The time has not come to reveal the details. I use "we" because I am a part of the project. I am one of those honored to be among those who contributed to the foundation of Hamas. The Palestinian internal scene had to embody the project's aspirations. Abroad, it had to play a political, media and financial role. In 1985, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin was released and a development within the Islamic Movement pushed it toward popular clash with the occupation. The Islamic Movement acquired a special presence among university students, especially the Islamic University in Gaza, which raised generations of the movement's partisans and the Bir Zeit University where there were different trends among which were Fatah, the Popular Front and an Islamic trend, in addition to An-Najah University in Nablus. The clashes that occurred at universities between the different trends' students were contained. While the internal national situation escalated, the Palestinian resistance came out in Beirut and spread in Tunisia, Sudan, and Yemen and in the Arab exiles. In a deteriorating Arab condition, a state of frustration ruled, the Palestinian cause was marginalized and sent off the official Arab governments' concerns. This atmosphere enhanced the necessity to nudge the internal situation. Hence the decision for entering popular confrontations with the occupation was taken. They started from Palestinian universities. In the 1986 demonstrations at Bir Zeit University, Saeb Zahab and Jawad Abu Sulmiyeh fell as martyrs. They are the movement's first two martyrs. They were two students from Khan Younis. We consider 1985 and 1986 a preliminary step of confrontations and that the beginning of the 1980s until 1987 was a secret preparation period and of Palestinian youth mobilization, through student blocs and mosques.
The relation with the 1948 territories
* Did this movement stretch to the 1948 territories?
- No, such organizational spread did not happen. However, the Islamic symbols moved between Haifa, Yafa, Nazareth and the 'triangle' villages. The youth of the 1948 Palestinians studied in the West Bank and we established contacts with them. Between 1979 and 1980, an Islamic movement was established on the 1948 territories - independent organizational framework from ours. Sheikh Abdullah Nemr Darwish led this movement, and Sheikh Raed Salah was his deputy. They soon broke up and Salah was imprisoned, and still is, due to his role regarding the Al-Aqsa mosque.
* Isn't this movement affiliated to Hamas?
- No. The 1948 Palestinians' situation is different and independent from ours. They live under Israeli occupation in an Israeli state, under Israeli laws and they carry the Israeli nationality. This special case distinguishes their choice of action from people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. By denying the relation between them and Hamas, I do not hide an actual relation between the two. Had there been a link, it would have been impossible to hide it. They are our brothers and a part of our people. Sheikh Raed Salah and his brothers in the Islamic movement in the West Bank and Gaza established contacts with Fatah and other factions. When problems occurred in Gaza, Sheikh Raed Salah and his brothers were involved in reconciliation committees. When the Israelis dug the tunnel under Al-Aqsa mosque, Sheikh Salah followed up this issue; video taped the tunnel and handed it over to Yasser Arafat. In this way, they are practicing their public national and religious responsibilities and interact with all the Palestinian society and its factions.
Therefore, between 1985 and 1986, the Hamas project began to develop and mature, without declaring itself. Communication between the inside and outside was deep and drew the features of this project. Abroad, we focused on collecting donations in order to move the project and secure its expenses, in addition to attracting the Palestinian Diaspora and communicating with the Arab depth and Islamic movements. Within these circles, we spread the idea that the Palestinian cause is the central cause of the Umma. It is in the land of Prophet Mohamad. It is the land of the prophets. It is the land of the prophecies. It is the land of Al-Aqsa mosque. It is the land of the Dome of the Rock. It is the land of the Church of Nativity. It is the Umma's culture and history. People were slowly being convinced. For the Umma was concerned with other hot issues in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Moreover, the internal scene was not burning yet. At that time, the Fedayeen activity decreased, which limited the interaction of people with our cause; the donations were few and inadequate to our project. In 1987, when the first Intifada erupted, Abdulfattah Doukhan was the president-elect of the Islamic Movement in Gaza.
* Did the Movement, which had no declared name, have a Shoura (consultative) Council and elections?
- Yes. In every Palestinian city, the Movement had a Shoura Council. At that time, the pyramidal hierarchy was not clear, internally and externally.
The first Intifada
* Who represented the leadership abroad?
- I do not want to talk about that for security reasons. I will only say that I was with other leaders of the Movement abroad. At that time, the representatives of the leadership abroad were clandestine. On December 7, 1987, the Israeli truck incident, which plowed into a car of Palestinian workers from Jabalia camp to the North of Gaza, happened and killed six to eight of them. This incident is considered a significant turning point. Anger ruled in Jabalia and Gaza. That night, in the presence of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and Abdulfattah Doukhan, the leadership bureau of the Islamic Movement met in Gaza and decided to escalate the popular reaction against the occupation. This does not mean that the Islamic Movement monopolized the following day's developments. In the Cairo dialogue in 1995 with Fatah, there was an argument about who launched the 1987 Intifada. Some people doubted that Hamas played a role in this Intifada. Abdulfattah Doukhan retaliated and said that the leadership bureau met and decided to retaliate and executed the decision. This does not cancel the role of Fatah and the other factions or the popular spirit that nurtured the Intifada. It was not a spontaneous reaction, it was the result of a decision that prepared and called for escalation.
* Was there a statement issued after the meeting?
- No. However, the decision was circulated among the organization's members. It is seldom that such a decision is circulated when an occupation force controls security. All our people joined the Intifada that started in Jabalia and spread to Gaza and the West Bank. As for the statement that declared Hamas, it was distributed on December 14, 1987 and was signed "Islamic Resistance Movement," without the word "Hamas." Back then; we had not reached an abbreviated name for our movement. We quickly capitalized the truck incident and had no time to choose a name. A month later, we chose "Hamas," following discussions between the inside (Palestine) and outside.
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