Rafik Hariri: Jumblatt refused Lahoud's becoming president. He left without having dinner... I spend $150 million a year, and I'm not concerned with entering the club of the world's richest people.
Ghassan Charbel Al-Hayat - 15/02/06//
On the eve of General Emile Lahoud's election as President of the Republic on 15 October 1998, I went to meet Prime Minister Rafik Hariri at the Grand Serail. One of the television stations was replaying the election session and PM Hariri was following the scenes as if searching the pictures for MPs who had been forced to support "the new president" like he had. He appeared to me as if trying to read, via the pictures, the meaning of Lahoud's arrival, in terms of Lebanon and Syria. Hariri knew that Syria was the number one and most important voter when it came to the Lebanese presidency; however, he had dreamed of being its Lebanese partner in the eventual selection of the president. He was unable to do this, and the presidency went to the person who he had hoped to keep distant.
PM Hariri was a statesman and would demand that his mind work to tame his feelings. I tried to provoke him, saying, "Your Excellency, how long do they need to dispense with your services?" He smiled and raised two fingers. I asked if they needed two years, and he answered, "They need two presidential terms, if they are concerned with the interest of the country. My interest is in leaving, and the country's interest is in my staying. I've decided to put the country's interest first.
Hariri excused himself from forming the first government in the Lahoud era, after a dispute about the delegation of MPs' votes, which left Lahoud with the freedom to name the prime minister-designate. In fact, some of his friends advised him to leave office, and one of them was then-Syrian Vice President Abdel-Halim Khaddam. Khaddam told him that Lahoud was beginning his mandate in a Buick that was fresh from the dealer, while "you're driving an Opel that has been ground down by exercising power." Khaddam suggested that Hariri let Lahoud use up some of the power of his car, and then they would see. This is what happened when Hariri returned to power in 2000 after a clear election victory, a victory that did not anger some Syrian parties that had not been enthusiastic about Lahoud in the first place.
In the summer of 1999, I went to see Hariri in Sardinia. He appeared busy with Beirut, instead of the magic of the place where he had anchored his yacht. During the discussion, which lasted almost all day, Hariri would take advantage of the breaks to make telephone calls, via his advisors and friends, to journalists, asking about conditions in the country and any new developments.
PART II
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| Late Lebanese PM visiting contruction sites (90's). |
Al-Hayat: When did your wealth reach $1 billion?
PM Hariri: That's a pretty big question.
Al-Hayat: When did your wealth reach $100 million?
PM Hariri: When I was 33. That was the boom time, and work was falling down like rain.
Al-Hayat: In 1982 you had become a millionaire?
I PM Hariri: n 1982 or 1983.
Al-Hayat: Forbes estimated your wealth at $4 billion; is this close to the truth?
PM Hariri: The truth is that I don't know precisely. Estimating wealth has to do with prices of shares, and land, and companies, and this differs. Praise be to God, I say.
Al-Hayat: Is that figure close?
PM Hariri: Not far away. Our work is ongoing.
Al-Hayat: Four years ago, you told me that you had 25,000 employees.
PM Hariri: Yes, that's still the case.
Al-Hayat: Has your work declined?
PM Hariri: No, It's increased. In 1998, the turnover in Saudi Arabia was at the highest level it's ever been, even when I was there - $2.2 billion.
Al-Hayat: Are you involved in maintenance?
PM Hariri: Maintenance of all the projects that we execute. We perform maintenance on airports and other facilities.
Al-Hayat: You business in Saudi Arabia is being run by your son, Saad?
PM Hariri: Yes, and there's a board of directors.
Al-Hayat: What else can you say about your wealth?
PM Hariri: Once again, I can confirm that I'm not obsessed with entering the kind of clubs they talk about in the media, like the richest 500 people in the world, or richest 100 in the world. I don't care about that.
Al-Hayat: What things do you still want? You're a billionaire and you've become a prime minister. What do you want?
PM Hariri: Nothing, I don't want anything. This is why no one can blackmail me with al-Assad.
Al-Hayat: You have a strong relationship with King Fahd bin Abdel-Aziz (of Saudi Arabia). With whom do you also have a strong relationship in the Arab world?
PM Hariri: With President Hafez al-Assad.
Al-Hayat: When did you meet him for the first time?
PM Hariri: At the end of 1982, or beginning of 1983, as I remember. I was with Prince Bandar bin Sultan and the objective was a cease-fire in Lebanon. The relationship continued. I don't think that anyone outside Syria had this many meetings with President al-Assad and spent this much time with him. The relationship has continued for 17 years and I've met him about 50 times.
Al-Hayat: What distinguishes President al-Assad?
His strategic mind; at the same time, he's concerned with the details. Politicians usually have one of these two traits, but President al-Assad.
PM Hariri: combines the two. He's strategic, and he's concerned with the smallest details. This is in addition to characteristics such as loyalty, and taking the long-term view of things. President al-Asad has given Syria status in the world. Observe now that all eyes are turning to Syria regarding peace; there can be no hope of peace without (Syria).
Al-Hayat: When did Damascus discuss the prime minister's post with you?
PM Hariri: In 1992.
Al-Hayat: Really?
PM Hariri: As I told you before, it wasn't discussed with me before that. Perhaps with others.
Al-Hayat: They say that President Elias Hrawi proposed your name right after he was elected.
PM Hariri: That's correct.
Al-Hayat: And he was told, "It's too early."
PM Hariri: Yes, too early.
Al-Hayat: Why did it become suitable in 1992 after being "too early" just shortly before that?
PM Hariri: I think that conditions changed, after the parliamentary elections in Lebanon. A new phase, a new policy course. A new speaker of Parliament.
Al-Hayat: Before being named, you met with President al-Assad. What did you reach an understanding about?
PM Hariri: About the alliance between Lebanon and Syria. I think that from our side, we implemented what was agreed, and they did too. President al-Assad supported the relationship between Syria and Lebanon and I did everything while prime minister to strengthen this relationship. I believe the relationship moved from one situation to another. No doubt President Elias Hrawi played a fundamental role, and Speaker (Nabih) Berry as well. In Lebanon, there isn't a single "top leader." Each person does what he can, from his position (in government).
Al-Hayat: During this session, did you try to receive a "wider" authorization to form a Cabinet?
PM Hariri: President al-Assad is a person who has a special attractiveness. I didn't discuss names of ministers with President al-Assad.
Al-Hayat: Did Saudi Arabia play a direct role in your becoming prime minister?
PM Hariri: No.
Al-Hayat: It's said that you asked King Fahd bin Abdel-Aziz and he hesitated in supporting you.
PM Hariri: I asked King Fahd, and he told me, "May God assist you; we are concerned with the interest of Lebanon." King Fahd feared for me, regarding security incidents.
Al-Hayat: Have you ever faced an assassination attempt?
PM Hariri: No.
Al-Hayat: Have you received information about plans to assassinate you?
PM Hariri: There have always been reports.
Al-Hayat: Who's responsible for your security?
PM Hariri: The Internal Security Forces (Lebanon's police).
Al-Hayat: Have mafias targeted you, for example?
PM Hariri: There's been a lot of talk about that. I don't allow myself to be affected by these reports. At first, I was more careful, and so were those who were responsible for my security. I'm a believer, and I am not obsessed about assassination.
Al-Hayat: Did your parents approve your getting involved in politics?
PM Hariri: No, they were always against it.
Al-Hayat: Why?
PM Hariri: First of all, because I'm not from a "political family," meaning no tradition of this type. My father always used to say, "Politics has no religion." He would tell me, "God has blessed you and you want to help the world, help it. If you want to get involved in politics to help your country, there's another way, besides politics."
Al-Hayat: Is fear about your fortune one of the reasons?
PM Hariri: No, I they didn't have this problem.
Al-Hayat:And your mother?
PM Hariri: She had the same position, that one could help without getting involved in politics. No one in our house wanted me to get into politics. My wife didn't support it. I got my sister involved in politics.
Al-Hayat: Do you want me to believe that your wife was happy when you left office?
PM Hariri: They threw me a party, it was like a big holiday.
Al-Hayat: Usually a woman would want her husband in politics; perhaps your wife thinks that you will remain in the spotlight.
PM Hariri: If you want to make sure, ask her. She's now afraid that I'll return to office.
Al-Hayat: When did your relationship with President Elias Hrawi begin?
PM Hariri: In 1982.
Al-Hayat: You met each other at an initiative by Johnny Abdo. You met at Hrawi's house, and the bed broke under you.
PM Hariri: That's correct.
Al-Hayat: You played a role in Hrawi's becoming president?
PM Hariri: Yes.
I Al-Hayat: It's said that you didn't support the presidency of Rene Mouawad.
PM Hariri: That's not true.
Al-Hayat: What do you remember regarding the presidency, post-Taif?
PM Hariri: Even before Taif, there was an understanding between Syria and Saudi Arabia over Rene Mouawad.
Al-Hayat: Who helped set up this understanding?
PM Hariri: Many people helped, and his personality was also a helping factor. He was known by all sides.
Al-Hayat: When did Syria support Mouawad?
PM Hariri: Before Taif. It wasn't final, but the talk was there. After Taif, the idea was translated into reality.
Al-Hayat: What's the story of your secret trip to Syria after Taif and your meeting with President al-Assad?
PM Hariri: MPs from Lebanon came to Paris. One day, it was said that Mouawad was absent. That day, he was in Syria. He went with my plane and met President al-Assad, then the election took place.
Al-Hayat: Your first candidate was Elias Hrawi?
PM Hariri: I knew him more, and knew that he was an aggressive person, in a good way, taking the initiative. I thought the time needed such characteristics, and later on I was proven right.
Al-Hayat: Did Mouawad discuss with you giving a certain post?
PM Hariri: No.
Al-Hayat: What happened after Mouawad's assassination?
PM Hariri: I visited his family in the house in Paris, and was asked what should be done. I said, elections. We telephoned MPs who were in Paris.
Al-Hayat: When Hrawi's name was proposed, what other names were proposed?
PM Hariri: There was George Saade, God rest his soul.
Al-Hayat: Was Jean Obeid mentioned? Did he meet with al-Assad?
PM Hariri: There was a meeting between him and Abdel-Halim Khaddam and Hikmat Shehabi. This happened after Mouawad's martyrdom.
Al-Hayat: They say that the presidency was offered to Pierre Helou.
PM Hariri: There was talk of this, but I'm not certain about it. It's said that Speaker Hussein Husseini relayed the offer, but that Helou answered that the issue of Michel Aoun would only be solved by force, and that he (Helou) wasn't ready for this.
Al-Hayat: And Jean Obeid?
PM Hariri: He said that President Franjieh's name was on the table, and that he couldn't come before Franjieh; this was a position of loyalty to Franjieh.
Al-Hayat: So you tipped the balance toward Hrawi with Syria?
PM Hariri: I was among those who worked with Syria, and Saudi Arabia as well.
Al-Hayat: What did the Americans want?
PM Hariri: The election of a president.
Al-Hayat: Did Hrawi meet al-Assad prior to the election, like Mouawad did?
PM Hariri: I think something like that happened.
From the First Day
Al-Hayat: After his election, did Hrawi tell you that he would propose you as prime minister?
PM Hariri: Yes, he had this in mind from the first day.
Al-Hayat: You had differences with him after you became prime minister.
PM Hariri: We differed a lot, and we agreed a lot. Let me tell you something. Each of us had a personal weakness regarding the other. Even when we were in disagreement, and he was skilled in maneuvering, I couldn't hate him, and he couldn't hate me. The truth is that I have a weak point. I like funny people, and President Hrawi, in addition to his other traits, is funny. I don't like stuffy people, and I'm not a hateful person. For example, I like Nabih Berry, despite all of the differences. I would sometimes get angry at his maneuverings, and stop talking to him, then discover that I had become madder than he was. In my like, I've been unable to build a strong relationship with someone who's too serious, or obnoxious, no matter what my financial or political interest might be. That's my nature. Perhaps we can meet, but I feel like I'm being forced to. Sometimes I would get hurt by a person who is funny, and even so, I wouldn't be able to stop myself from liking this person.
Al-Hayat: Let's talk about some funny things regarding President Hrawi.
PM Hariri: Oh my. He's a "professor" when it comes to making jokes and setting people up. And when you catch him setting up a gag on someone, he laughs.
Al-Hayat: Did funny things happen during Cabinet meetings?
PM Hariri: All the time. The story of the civil marriage issue, isn't that a funny one? He passed out the text to ministers, saying it was "for information," then carried it out behind my back, and put it to a vote.
Al-Hayat: And there were periods of anger?
PM Hariri: Always. At high, medium, and low levels, although we always continued to like each other.
Al-Hayat: Did you retain the personal relationship with President Hrawi after he left Baabda Palace?
PM Hariri: Yes.
Al-Hayat: Do women play a role in poisoning relationships?
PM Hariri: Yes, they play a role in poisoning them, and repairing them.
Al-Hayat: Is your wife like this?
PM Hariri: Nazek doesn't get involved.
Al-Hayat: Doesn't she have sensitivities about certain politicians?
PM Hariri: No.
Al-Hayat: And Mona Hrawi, the wife of President Hrawi?
PM Hariri: I admire her, but she has a different kind of personality.
Al-Hayat: What did President Hrawi say about your trips outside the country?
PM Hariri: Nothing. He'd take it with a joke. After a trip abroad, he would tell me, "Of course, you're going to tell me that they said hello to me, and that they miss me."
Al-Hayat: Why didn't he go?
PM Hariri: He didn't like to.
Al-Hayat: Did you suggest it to him?
PM Hariri: I would suggest that he go with his entourage. He didn't like this. There are many criticisms of his presidency, but he was a democrat, and stood up for the regime. He was angry about some of the provisions of the Constitution, but he did not violate them. He tried to amend them through democratic means. This is a point in his favor. I didn't like some of the provisions, but I didn't violate them.
Al-Hayat: In the disputes between you, you would resort to Syria for "arbitration." Couldn't the two of you sit in Baabda Palace (and resolve things)?
PM Hariri: We did sit in Baabda, and we didn't resort to Syria for everything. We were all subject to concentrated campaigns (of criticism). There were many people who were against me.
Al-Hayat: Is it true that before the formation of your first Cabinet, you thought about forming one like the one formed at the beginning of Lahoud's presidency?
PM Hariri: Yes. I wanted the government to be like this: I wanted a Cabinet with 30 ministers, and I still support this. Experience proved this point. Politics in Lebanon is a big deal, and you have to give some posts to politicians, while bringing in technocrats to work. A government of veteran politicians or one of passive technocrats won't help, and won't work.
Al-Hayat: In the first Cabinet, what did you propose?
PM Hariri: I wanted all governments that I formed to retain a general, nationalist line; however, this should be represented by people with a good reputation, with no black mark against them. We didn't succeed at this, for several reasons. This is something that I'm blamed for. What happened in Ireland? Attempts to let the fighters participate in power, then the logic of the State would prevail. Ending the war in Lebanon, or ending the militias, saw two attempts. There's the method that Michel Aoun used. He proposed ending the Lebanese Forces by force. He used artillery, and what was the result? The eastern areas were destroyed, so was the army, and the militia remained. Elias Hrawi proposed something different. He told the militias that the State was open for all. Turn over your weapons to the State, and participate. This began in 1990, and I don't want to take credit; it began before I became prime minister. Let me ask you, where are the militias today? They melted away. The experience of Michel Aoun was destructive, regardless of the objectives. Hrawi ended the civil war in another way. Now, the State is stronger.
Al-Hayat: Why did you support an extension of Hrawi's mandate (in 1995)?
PM Hariri: The regional situation required keeping things the way they were. There was consultation with all parties, inside and outside the country, and we arrived at an agreement. Hrawi's mandate was extended. This met with fierce opposition by various forces, and it continued until the end of his term.
Al-Hayat: After Hrawi's term was extended, was he a weak president?
PM Hariri: I think that all of us could have done better than we did during the extended mandate. Perhaps it would have been better for President Hrawi to leave after completing his 6 years. But this is what happened, and we can't go back in time.
Al-Hayat: Is it true you proposed an extension to prevent General Lahoud from becoming president?
PM Hariri: No, if extension hadn't happened, another person would have become president.
Al-Hayat: Did you propose names at the time?
PM Hariri: There were always names on the table, including Jean Obeid.
Al-Hayat: Why Jean Obeid?
PM Hariri: Because he's trusted.
Al-Hayat: When did you meet Jacques Chirac?
PM Hariri: Twenty years ago. He was the mayor of Paris and I was there. A friendship arose, based on trust, and became a family relationship.
Al-Hayat: It seems like you like acquire beautiful homes. Where do you own houses?
PM Hariri: Yes. I have homes in Marbella, and Palma, Cannes, Monte Carlo, San Maxim, in and around Paris, and New York, Washington, Switzerland, Riyadh, Jeddah, Amman, Damascus, and in Lebanon, in Beirut, Sidon and Cannes.
Al-Hayat: Which one do you like the most?
PM Hariri: All of them. The Riyadh home has a special meaning for me. I lived there for a long time, and my children were born there.
Al-Hayat: Who's responsible for maintaining these houses?
PM Hariri: The maintenance department of our company.
Al-Hayat: How much do you spend a month? Five million dollars?
PM Hariri: As personal expenditures, no. Most of my expenditure is on social assistance.
Al-Hayat: How much do you spend annually?
PM Hariri: More than $150 million, between personal expenditure and assistance.
Al-Hayat: The personal part is around $30 million a year?
PM Hariri: Perhaps.
Al-Hayat: You own two yachts. What are their names?
PM Hariri: Nara, and Narana.
Al-Hayat: And how many planes?
PM Hariri: Four planes. Two are Boeing 727s, one is a G3, and the fourth hasn't arrived yet.
Al-Hayat: When did you buy your first plane?
PM Hariri: I think in 1978 or 1979, it was a Sapper Liner.
Al-Hayat: That year, you gave a plane as a gift to Prime Minister Salim Hoss.
PM Hariri: Yes, it is at the disposal of the Lebanese State.
Al-Hayat: When did you buy your yacht Nara?
PM Hariri: In 1982. The second one is new.
Al-Hayat: You had meetings with Samir Geagea, the former leader of the banned Lebanese Forces, inside and outside Lebanon, didn't you?
PM Hariri: During the war and at its end, I met with everyone.
Al-Hayat: When did the relationship with Walid Jumblatt begin?
PM Hariri: At the end of 1982. Most of these relationships began after the (1982) Israeli invasion of Lebanon. In fact, the political ties with most groups began after 1982. Before that, I wasn't involved in the details of politics.
Al-Hayat: Your relationship with Walid Jumblatt is either hot or cold, isn't it?
PM Hariri: I've known Walid since 1982, and my relationship with him became firm after that date. It never became a cold relationship. The hot part might fade, but it never got to the point of cold.
Has the current opposition (movement) united you?
PM Hariri: No, it was before that. Before the presidential election he visited me in Faqra, to have dinner. We spoke, didn't agree, and he left without having dinner. He was strongly opposed to General Lahoud's becoming president. He stated his opinion frankly.
With Lahoud
I Al-Hayat: s Syrian intervention what made you support General Lahoud's becoming president?
PM Hariri: That's one element, in addition to the general climate. A smart marketing campaign was organized to guarantee General Lahoud's election, and it was clear that if he didn't become president, there would be frustration in the country. There was a wide-scale attack against the political class in Lebanon, which made it easy to attack this class, because of the wars between its various sides. So, Lahoud's presidency became a demand (by the public), which is what the campaign was aimed at.
Al-Hayat: With General Lahoud, what did you agree about before his election?
PM Hariri: Everything.
Al-Hayat: The formation of the first Cabinet?
PM Hariri: There was nothing we didn't discuss, and the understanding between us was a complete one.
Entering, and Leaving Government
Al-Hayat: Let's talk about two important days. The first was when you were tasked to form your first government, and the second was when you left the Presidential Palace, during another president's term, excusing yourself from forming a Cabinet. What do you remember about the first occasion?
PM Hariri: On the first occasion, there was a lot of caution, over every word. All of my remarks were written. In my address, I said that the reconstruction process will have begun by spring. The politicians picked up on this, and called it "springtime promises." I meant that we would need 10 years. They changed this, and made it as if I had said everything would be completed by spring. Our politicians are clever. Of course, people learn, and gain experience in life.
Al-Hayat: What did your wife tell you the day you headed your first Cabinet?
PM Hariri: She wasn't happy.
Al-Hayat: She had concerns about your security?
PM Hariri: A number of things. Our life had changed. There was no longer enough time for the children. If Nazek was with me in Beirut, she would be worried about the kids, in Paris. If she lived with the kids, then she'd be worried about her husband. It was a difficult period for our family, perhaps the toughest in my life.
Al-Hayat: Were you afraid that the formation of your first Cabinet would be hindered?
PM Hariri: No.
Al-Hayat: And the day you declined to form a Cabinet. Is it true that you were carrying two papers. One for your acceptance and one for turning down the job?
PM Hariri: No, I went up there (to Baabda Palace) with a paper for my acceptance. But I was surprised by the issue of seeing MPs' votes delegated to the president (placed at his disposal). I had told the president that I would be obliged to decline, if this happened. He told me that it wouldn't happen. I asked him why it did happen, and he said the MPs ahd forced him to. So I declined.
Al-Hayat: What was his reaction?
PM Hariri: He asked me "How?" and I said, "I decline, like I said."
Al-Hayat: Is it true that you waited for a telephone call from Syria, but it didn't come?
PM Hariri: That's not true. And I didn't call.
Al-Hayat: When did you meet Abdel-Halim Khaddam?
PM Hariri: In 1982.
Al-Hayat: And your relationship became stronger after that time?
PM Hariri: Yes, I always coordinated with Syria, and he was the vice president, and responsible for Lebanon, with Hikmat Shehabi and Ghazi Kenaan.
Al-Hayat: Don't politicians in Lebanon complain about Khaddam's style?
PM Hariri: Abu Jamal (Khaddam) represented an important phase in Syria's history, and particularly in Lebanon.
Al-Hayat: Are you afraid of peace in the region?
PM Hariri: I'm not afraid, but we should be realistic. I think that peace for the region is necessary, and important, if it is comprehensive. However, I think that it won't solve all the region's problems. It will solve a type of problem, and create huge challenges. Giving the impression that peace will solve al of our problems isn't right. I don't feel that there are those in Lebanon trying to understand these challenges or study their repercussions on the country. There is talk by top officials in the country, saying that all of the problems will be solved by signing a peace deal. I think that this is a big mistake. There are many problems: the camps, Hizbullah, normalization, economic problems, and national and cultural challenges. Peace is no picnic, and simplifying the problems leads to avoiding a search for solutions.
Al-Hayat: Do you fear that peace will create terror?
PM Hariri: On both sides, there are those who oppose peace, among the Israelis, and the Arabs. And these groups will express themselves using various means. I hope that violence isn't one of them.
Al-Hayat: Are you now under surveillance?
PM Hariri: Yes.
Al-Hayat: Would you like to have been in power during this period?
PM Hariri: (Laughs) No.
Tomorrow: Part Three
Also Read: Rafik Hariri: "Assassinating me is improbable; it is a big decision, one that is dangerous and costly. They want to keep the country sick. No one has an interest in killing a sick person . . . and they reject curing him."
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